Dr. Robert Grays, a retired pastor with the Mount Zion Pentecostal Church of Los Angeles shares his story of surviving a harrowing car accident in 1999. While the van he was driving flipped multiple times and was destroyed in the accident, he and four colleagues were not injured in the crash. At the time of the accident, a divine bright light enveloped the vehicle and a voice spoke for what seemed like hours, but actually took place "outside of time."
Robert mentions:
the 1999 NBA finals, San Antonio, TX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NBA_Finals
the story of Lazarus and the rich man: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus
the story of Eli: https://web.mit.edu/jywang/www/cef/Bible/NIV/NIV_Bible/1SAM+3.html
MT interviews Robert Grays
Elisa: So Robert, tell us a little bit about yourself
Robert: Well, I grew up in the city of San Francisco and, come from a large family of about 13
Elisa: Wow.
Robert: than 13 siblings and boys and three girls.
Elisa: Well, 10 boys And three girls. Wow.
Robert: yeah, and we were all very involved in athletics and, and, uh, and I played a lot of basketball over the years and I came over here almost to be in a professional basketball player
Robert: and, uh, that didn't happen.
And so I studied and I got into the sports world through, sports merchandising. And so I was in the field selling and traveling all around the country, doing sports merchandise.
Elisa: Okay.
Robert: And getting involved in a lot of, all the, the big events where you had, merchandise and we would travel to the super bowl, the rose bowl and all the big events all around the country for years I traveled.
And during that time, I was not involved in a religion at all for a number of years in my profession. And, , then when I became disgruntled to it, the travel and the lifestyle, , I was drawn to, Christianity and a certain point, uh, you know, just men disgruntled with the world ways.
, and, so I became heavily involved in church activities. But I'm still involved in the same, , line of work, but I just had a different attitude life in general, just understanding more about God and you know how to live a Christian life. So,
Elisa: Yeah, I bet. I think that there's also something to be said for community, right? When you join a church, you become part of something pretty special when you have this connection to many other people in a community. Was that…
Robert: Yes. Yeah, you have more of a concerned about the world, things that are occurring around you and you're more involved and more concerned
About trying to make the world a better place. I think that's the whole mix of, uh, spirituality is, is trying to be, you know, be, uh, uh, a contributor to a better society rather than just a participant.
Elisa: Right.
Robert: And so I took on that spirit and, you're staying , involved in community activities and being more concerned about what was happening and how could I make it better and getting around the same people that the same mind was quite, quite valuable to me in my group, in the spiritual realm.
Elisa: Okay. So that was in your forties. You said you, you came back to the church.
Robert: I turned 40 and, I was involved in a relationship that was what threw me out , you know, just wanted to change. to be a better person for the individual that I was involved with. And they were already in that way, so that was the way I got drawn in.
And it was all for the betterment because I wasn't on a good road, you know, health wise in any other ways. And that when, when I got into reality, I started to be more, concerned with living a healthy life. And like, you know, more. , involved community-wise and more concerned about the world around me.
Elisa: You also became a pastor, is that right?
Robert: Yes.. Then after about four years , in the, studies and everything I was called and, it was a very spiritual experience. You know, when, when I first I just start really having a connection to, the higher power and being able to hear what was being said, you know, I was growing as spiritual ear
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: you have to have an ear to hear, you know, and one day I was driving down the street and it came and I had to pull my car over but it was such a feeling.
And it said, go and talk to your pastor. And, uh, I came that next day and went into his office and I walked in and I didn't say anything. He had all these, minister pulpit, etiquette and minister prep and all these different books on being a minister of him. But that was really a shock to me that he already knew.
Elisa: Yeah, he was ready for you.
Robert: Yeah, he was ready but I was just being obedient to my spiritual ears, you know?
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: And it's, uh, but instead of me having to go in there fast, I think I've been called.
Elisa: Wow.
Robert: That, that was one of the first times that I started to have like, sounded like a supernatural occurrences.
Elisa: Yeah, it sounds like you have a real connection? Yeah.
Robert: Yeah. Oh yes. And then, uh, and it, hasn't never went away and all the years, and now even with my wife, I'll have situations, I'll be thinking, I want something. I come home and she'll have it sitting on table.
It happens with us all the time. You know, it touches me.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: Um, yeah, so that was the beginning of my ministry. And then what happened? My pastor had a stroke. Uh, two years later and I had been, come on his favorite ministry, so they put me into his place and that's how I became the pastor over that congregation. This was in Los Angeles.
So that's about the crux of my story leading up to that incident.
At that time, I had been maybe 15 years into the, uh, the merchandising, you know, sports, merchandise shirts, hats who, you know, different things that people would want at different events.
So, we would go to the different events, wherever the major events would happen and I would have my crew and we would go and then set up, you know, different locations. You buy your space at the event, you rent like a booth or something like that. And then I have the guys, they would do, you know, get everything set and be able to set up and just start selling merchandise.
We were driving to San Antonio.
Texas. So , we'd got it loaded up and took off. , I started out driving and, we almost left about five, five in the evening. So I'm driving and I must have trouble about seven, eight hours just straight down there.
And everybody had went to sleep. It got late and it had got late into the night and everybody was sleeping and I'm just driving, you know, uh, listen to light music. And driving and, uh, so about, I guess it must have been about two o'clock in the morning. It was dark. I had been driving like maybe a little over eight hours, just straight driving, you know, we had stopped and got something, you know, and got back on the road and I can continue driving, you know, sometimes you just want to drive.
So we normally would change the drivers, about every four hours or so, you know, I just went into a driving mode and so, it got so quiet and I'm just driving and meditating.
And I was spending a lot of time just meditating , oh God. Thinking about, what I could say, you know, different, sermons that I would come up with and just have them in my mind oh that'd be a nice sermon. Well, that's something I could talk about. Oh yeah. You know, that's how you, how you put your sermons together , in ministry , things would come to you. .
And so I felt myself getting tired. I just really felt like, Ooh, I'm really getting sleepy. And, and um, I thought, I said, well, let me go over and give the wheel into the, uh, whoever was going to drive next would always be in the passenger seat.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: And so I nudged the guy, and then he woke up and he got behind the wheel that I got into the passenger seat and we took off again. And when I looked up and, um, I went into a deep sleep and also something brought me back into an alert state.
And when I got into that, you know, just being aware of everything, I heard this music, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And I got so angry. I remember like I was so angry at this guy everybody's sleeping he's got the, and I go, Hey man, pull over, man. Get out of there, you know, and being the boss and in a bossy way. Hey get out from behind the wheel, man, you know, you're crazy.
And he pulled over, jumped out and I jumped back behind the wheel. He went right and went back to sleep.
Elisa: Okay.
Robert: And I take off and you know, in my mind. it was like a really irrational act.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: And so I jumped back behind the wheel and I've taken off driving I remember the speedometer with up around 75, almost up around 80. And something then just hit me like you're asleep and it was like I didn't have no control to do anything.
I couldn't stop, but nothing. It was just like you're asleep.
And when, when I said that, My head just went over, you know, I slumped
Elisa: You noticed yourself fall asleep.
Robert: yeah, no, I didn't notice it. It was just like, that was in, it just hit me like you're asleep, and like you're up sleepwalking.
Well, that's how that, what had happened. I would actually just sleeping when I did what I did and he gave me the wheel, not, you know, not really thinking about it.
And he just, he wanted to go back to sleep, I guess, instead of really checking me.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: And when I said I was asleep, the whole wheel just went over to the side and I didn't have no control over anything, and the car - it was like a van, it just flipped. And I remember that.
Elisa: The van flipped.
Robert: yeah. When it flipped, like I sort of came out of the sleep and I'm aware that I'm in a wreck, and the car started flipping. And, the next thing I remember it just, it was just, it was sort of skidding along. It had flipped a few times and they it just slid down in the gully.
And I, and I remember seeing he had a big, it was like a boulder or something, and it was going to hit that boulder. It was just, it was something that was there. I don't know exactly what to wear, but I still, it was coming right at my head. And I just remember, I just screamed Jesus like that. I came out of the sleep, and everything, and I just said Jesus!
I mean to the top of my voice! I remember just screaming. And when I said that everything just lit up, it was just light, just a whole light just came and I let it sit with that light. It took my mind off everything - it just took my whole attention and everything. And I'm looking at it.
It was just breathtaking. And then out of the light, he came, he said, “Robert” – I heard a voice
And he said it again, “Robert” – it just echoed like my name and I just started hearing different… He was just talking to me and I just was hearing certain things - he was saying a lot of different stuff he's talking about. I don't want to get into it. You know, what? It was stuff that I definitely just actually speak on, but I don't really like to get into it.
Robert: It was just really deep, you know, very meaningful. It was very scriptural.
Uh, And I could hear him talking. Seemed like he just kept talking to me and talking and talking and, I was feeling so, uh, it was just a feeling that would just so beautiful and so deep.
And I was just in that place and I don't know how long ago, but it seemed like I was there forever, and then all of a sudden I heard the van stop, it just came to a stop. And I was down on the side, looking up and the light was in the passenger window, the whole thing was lit up.
I'm looking straight up in that window. Cause there was no glass. The glass had broke out.
Elisa: okay.
Robert: I was looking at the light, just looking at it and hearing him, talking to me and all of a sudden everything stopped. And then the light just start to pull away. And I was reaching up, jumping up to try to go with the light, to reach it , trying, to grab.
Like it was a feeling, it wasn't only the light, but it was the way I felt I described it at like a thousand orgasms. It was one one of the ways I always thought about it. It was that intense.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: And, and as the light was putting out was I remember just reaching and reaching and try to get and all of a sudden, the last thing he said was, “No, no… Go and tell it.”
Like that, the voice…
Elisa: Go and tell it.
Robert: …and tell it.
Elisa: Wow.
Robert: And then I stopped fighting. I stopped trying to go with it. And then I just became calm, like, okay, leave it alone. And then I actually watched it, just pull back and pull away the light
Elisa: Um…
Robert: And the next thing that I heard were these screaming voices
Elisa: The people in the backseat were screaming,
Robert: They was screaming. And I was like, oh my God.
I’ve gone and killed somebody. And then I said, God don't let me be to kill anybody, man. And then the people was just pulling the guys out of the truck.
Elisa: So emergency workers came.
Robert: Truckers along the road..., I knew it was about three other trucks and stuff. A lot of good peoples on the road, just pulling, pulling guys out of there. And then the ambulance just started coming
Elisa: But nobody was hurt in this accident, right.
Robert: One had a little scrape like a finger nail scratch on the back of his head and there was glass on the back of his head, and that was the only person had a scratch.
Elisa: Wow. Five people, plus you And nobody had any major injuries.
Robert: It was four and me, so I've made, I would have made five.
Elisa: Okay.
Robert: …and I was like, wow.
Elisa: No injuries. and how many, how many times did the van flip? Do you know?
Robert: They approximated - the people that saw it, you would say it like four or five times
Elisa: Wow.
Robert: It went in the gully
Elisa: That, that car was really totaled, but you, but everybody walked away from that.
Robert: Just Like nothing had happened.
Elisa: Wow.
Robert: And it was amazing thing. Something that happened. Two weeks later, a whole group of guys died. And there was a couple of different people that I knew that did the same work. And one group had the same accident
Elisa: No kidding.
Robert: …and they die.
And then, oh my God, look at that. He spared me.
Elisa: Wow.
So that event, must've had an incredible effect on you in your life because you had a very deep, meaningful conversation with the voice, which I assume was Jesus, because you called his name. Um, And I'd like to know how that changed you.
Robert: Well, good question. Um, for awhile I was just wasn't able to even talk about it, just happy to be home. And I don't think I got on the road again. for awhile and then, , I started to, you know, speak on it in churches and it was, it always affected people when I would tell them the story, I would like, and everybody would come up to me and want to hear about it.
And so it affected me in that way. It's almost like celebrity,
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: Just in my community. I wasn't traveling a lot, anything with my ministry at that time. And so it affected me another way. And then if one of the thing that, uh, was amazing was how I kept getting the information that he had shared with me and I was making sermons out of it.
And I remember one of my sermons with the two great "and thens" and then in the Bible that speaks about, and it says there, this one is a man wants to die, "and then" the judgment, and then there's another place in the Bible where it talks about the rich man and Lazarus. He said the rich man died.
"And then" he opened up his eyes and he was in hell.
Elisa: Um,
Robert: You know, the two great "and thens" that we encounter in life so you don't want to be like the rich man. You don't want to wake up and say, and then he opened up, but it always, it brought a lot of reality to the judgment until you know, the hereafter.
Have you read that story, of the rich man
Elisa: No, I love this, this phrase that comes out of the Bible that is about how it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than to put a camel through the eye of a needle. Or something like that.
That's I love, I love that. I think about it all the time.
Robert: That's really a real one. Yeah, but Lazarus was a beggar and he would come to the rich man's table and the, rich man wouldn't give him the crumbs and he would grab the crumbs off of the ground and eat from the rich man's feet.
Elisa: Wow,
Robert: but then the rich man died one day he died. And, he opened up his eyes and he was in hell.
So that's like the second death. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, that, that was what we're doing. What's occurring at the time, you know, would have flashbacks and stuff. And then, for one, I remember one evening I was in sleeping and I would wake up sometime and have like a feeling.
And, one night I had some new would come into like, just a real, almost like a reoccurance and I would just wake up feeling good like a a visitation, , I mean no light or nothing, but just a feeling
Then I would speak to it, you know, which I still do now? I meditate it now, you know, that's my new understanding of God.
I don't say a lot. I just be quiet and let him speak like Eli and Samuel. And he told him, just say, speak Lord and just get out of the way and let God speak. But this night. I asked him, I said, well, I got a lot of information. And I was curious because of the accident only took approximately maybe 30 seconds.
You know, I said, but it seemed like I got so much information. And he said, you wasn't in time,
Elisa: Um,
Robert: out. You were with me, there was no time
Elisa: I took you
Robert: and battery and it just came. Maybe I didn't hear it in my ear, but it was like, that explained it. I was…a bunch of information. I would just be so tired. Then I’d say, oh, and then I would make them out of like, uh, uh, sermons, you know, started using a lot of stuff just from that, uh, time that I was with him. And then the sermon would just come together. You know, you know,
I had one I wrote called walking out alive
Elisa: Yeah,
Robert: sermons off of that. But when I had that feeling that night and at that what's my question was I got so much information in that short amount of time. And it was like, you wasn't in time, took you outside with me.
Elisa: well,
Robert: Wow. And that I haven't had that visitation again, that's been, that's been over 20 years ago,
I started really meditating and really allowing God to, you know, be the boss. I'm nothing. Understand, God in a much greater way now. than I did.
Elisa: Yeah. Yeah. You were talking to me earlier about, the idea of the now, and I'd love for you to share some of that, because I think that's another insight that you have had since this accident
Robert: uh, about the power now.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: Well, I started to understand how important it is to be present in the moment because the only reality is in the moment. And the more I studied it that I realized that most people live in, in the past, you know, something that happened and, you could be so caught up on it.
And it's all in your thinking, the mind and the thoughts they work simultaneously. Uh, if you allow a thought to take hold and the mind comes in and the mind's job is to decipher and cut it up into many, many pieces, and that's how a person can get stuck in a thought. So when you, uh, when you're always in the moment, then it's really no more mind and no more thought, but you just being really directed by your higher self, which is all,
it has everything it's totally complete. Just like a tree don't have to ask for nothing, but has to stay present, there's stillness. It comes down to, you know, understanding stillness and the Bible speaks of it quite a bit, it said, be still and know that I am God. That's in the scriptures and so stillness, it represents now. Now is just total surrender, is total stillness of not, not really, uh, coming to God for nothing but him. I just need to know that you're there. And, and the only way you could know that is by being present in the moment. Cause God is a right now, God, he doesn't exist in the past or in the future. He's a right now.
And , so past is a illusion because you could still see it, but it's not real. But you could make it real, if you want to entertain it, know something happen to you this morning and you could still be at two o'clock the afternoon, still caught up in it and that robs you of your reality. So you have to learn how to let, let thingsgo, and come back to reality. So you have three positions and that's illusion reality and assumption. So, you can also live in a place of assumption. You're assuming something's going to happen and you allow it to take the power of who you are, because you're so caught up in it, but
it's an assumption.
Elisa: , like, do you mean fairing something will happen?
Robert: yeah. That, and also wanting something to happen
Elisa: Or even having an expectation ,right?
Robert: But yeah, well the mind is so tricky because like, you might be going to go somewhere and you're trying to tie your shoe, but your mind is already out the door!
Elisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Robert: You're doing one thing you're not really there.. You're already out the door, you're already in the car.
So that's called assumption until you get your shoe tied that that's the only thing that's real this time. Your shoe.
Elisa: Right..
Robert: When you started to recognize that I have to always be present in my reality, then you're empowered by presence,
you know, because we have everything, but we're caught up in assumption and illusion.
And so we don't enjoy the fruits of the, you know, what we have as human beings, but that's the only way you could embrace it as in reality. And reality is always in the moment,
Elisa: that's beautiful.
Robert: So that's basically just really understanding that there's nothing in assumption. There's nothing in illusion, everything exists in reality, and reality takes total presence.
Elisa: Yeah.
Robert: Presence in the moment - I'm here.
When you realize I'm not in my place,
you just come back here and now the only thing that counts
Elisa: yeah. That's very clear. It's very nice.
Robert, this has been really a wonderful conversation and I really, very much enjoyed it. I want to thank you.
Robert: I appreciate you too. I've been on the opportunity to speak on that for years. It's only got away from me so this has been a real blessing .